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Discussion about Stamina from old bulletin board, 9-26 Feb 2002, cursive text being answers to quotes. -- PumaN - 19 Jan 2003

Stamina

PumaN
To prevent a player from continously performing the most powerful command available to him, there is always some kind of power meter. Currently it is GP (guild points).

Do you have other ideas on how this could work in a future system...? What different kinds of stamina are there...? What affects stamina...? Do they affect your overall performance if you become drained...? How do you measure stamina...?


MattSpam
I think what we use right now is fine for the needs of the mud... but GP is too plain I think maybe mana for druids, stamina for thieves and charge for stormlords would make it seem more fun


ElffyB
I'm all for power drains.

I just can't understand botting for skills. It irks me to no end.

I think we have talked about this before.


PumaN
Stamina is a measure of how exhausted / full of energy a character is, it is not related to HP. Mana is any kind of magical energy. Time-delays is some way of making something take time, not necessarily real time, it can be simulated too.


Pikachu
I feel that altough Puma's idea may or may not enhance the gaming experience I find it hard to think many players would welcome the introduction of another gcommand charge which would just make the game a whole lot harder to play.

On the wiz side, I feel this would add a certain degree of realism to the game.

Which is why i feel the wizes are all for the extra gp cost.

In saying this personally I feel the current method of costing gp to gommands is efficient.

I cannot quite agree with it being efficient, mainly so cause when you use different kinds of gp, you have to be full to use one which you don't have a lot in... - PumaN

Example: Take for instance in a FANTASY world do wizards (players) not find they become stronger from using their skills more and more often, and therefore launch their spells more often. I feel this is already covered in the current gp system. Where you need to gpose, you will generally find that the higher players have much more gp then the lower players. I find it hard to fathom that a level 200 player should cast the same number of gcommands then a level 40 player before they become tired.

Where did anyone say that everyone would have the same amount of stamina? - PumaN

In short leave as is.


PumaN
Further clarification: Stamina is not just something that would replace gp, it is to be a measurement of how fatigued a character is. Such things as running and being in combat could deplete it. This adds a tactical twist to where you have to make choices that doesn't deplete your character to the point where he lumps down from lack of breath or energy.

If you then also think of a gcommand as something that isn't done outside of combat, but as a part of it, I hope you understand that it would be more a matter of choosing the correct acts for the situation, than just, 'how many' I can do...

So in a combat you can go offensive, using your most powerful commands, hoping that you can take out your foe quickly, when failing that, you realise you have to flee and hide somewhere to recuperate... Or defensive, using normal commands that are in the range of what you can keep up with without breaking a sweat...

Ive also had this thought of having a short-term and a long-term stamina, first being your breath and immediate energy needs... Other more a term of the well-being of your body, so for example, you could run for a whole night without sleep, but then you would be quite exhausted until youve had some proper rest...

Those are ideas, feel free to grind them...


Smokedragon
Now that I've finally understood this idea. I got to say I am amazed by the thought of it. I think it's a great idea having stamina. It would make the game more interesting that i've noticed already such as not just doing the same old thing because you will have to rest. Only thing that I'm still sorta confused apon is that when you said not players level 40 or players 200 will have the same stamina, will there be a way to aa it?


MattSpam
Stamina, although realistic, is a stupid idea that's been tested in numerous games and is never a very popular aspect of the game. Realism is something that is needed in MUDs but only up to a certain degree... I'm not going to complain about stamina if it's implemented but it's going to be buggy ( I haven't seen a perfect stamina system yet) and it's going to cut TG's population in half. I thought we were trying to attract players not drive them away. If you want to split gp costs so that if we have 15 gp out of 200 we can use anything requiring a certain type of gp I'm all for that, that's realistic and would be a welcomed change. Stamina however... if implemented, I feel should only be used in combat and also should be recovered faster than our current gp and hp.


ElffyB
Smoke is either easily amazed (also in previous posts) or Wizard Ass Kisser (WAK).


ElffyB
Stamina shouldn't be limited to combat, consider walking 100 rooms in a few fractions of a second. It's quite silly.

Also saying that you have never seen a well implemented Stamina system is no reason to not implement one.


PyrO
This is how I think stamina should work.

Points

You should have stamina points (and still keep gp), which can be trained using a certain skill (myabe switch Hp to other.points and stamina to other.stamina then just switch the skill levels for everyone). Stamina points could also be modified by dexerity and constitution.

I get the impression that your reasoning behind keeping gp is that we dont have any mana... - PumaN

Yeah, we can just change gp into mana. - PyrO

Movement

There should be two ways to move around on the mud, either walk in a direction (which would be default) or run. Walking would have a restriction with a timer applied to it ie cant walk more than 3 rooms in a second. But then if you run in a direction, there is no limit, but there is a stamina drain. Say walking removes 1 stamina point per room movied. Then running would remove 5 (say the average stamina for a midlevel person would be 500, so a player could speed walk a 100 rooms, but then be left wihout stamina).

Gcommands

Everytime you use a gcommand, you should loose some stamina, based on that gcommands gp cost. Like using a 150 gp cost command, would drain 50 stamina. So a continual use of a this large gp costing gcommand, would drain your stamina and make you unable to preform it. Plus if you fail an attempt at casting something, double stamina should be lost. So when you're in combat, instead of just hurling lightnings at a constant pace, you would have to go like: lighting, icestorm, icestorm, lightning, so you wont run out of stamina.

Differentiate

What would make stamina different than just making it some form of alternative gp? Well stamina would incorpareate everyday aspects of life into it. If your character didn't sleep at the inn during a day/night cycle in TG he/she would regen stamina much slower than normal, and that rate will continue to drop until it starts to negate your stamina. The same can be for not eating or drinking for long periods of time.

Purpose

Why add something that will make the game harder? Of course it adds a sense of realism, but it also adds balance, for example in a pk fight, a thief using stab will drain a lot less stamina than a stormlord using lightning, so the fight which would usually favour the powerful stormlord, maybe become more balanced this way. Stamina would also add more flare to the game, something new to make the game more challenging and overall make the game grow.

Yeah those are some of my ideas. (didnt read the previous posts too well so some of the stuff I said may have already been said)


ElffyB
I have always related gp (used in performing a MAGICAL gcommand) synonymous with mana.

Implementing mana would require seperating skills that are magical and non-magical.

For instance Stab (thief) and Icestorm (storm), while stab is definitely a natural physical type skill Icestorm is magical skill not natural.

Which could lead to Physical stamina and Mental/Magical stamina.

Hmm, i kinda like that, cause if that also ties in to how much physical damage you can take, it would give a reason behind magicians not being able to take as much hits as a warrior... - PumaN

You could break it up further from there also.

It could also lead to a more spell system detached from the guild paradigm.


MikeBedlam
I like what Pyro said. Those ideas sounded realistic and interesting in terms of balance.

And i like what Elffy said about the different types of stamina.

I regret taking so long to post on this subject because it is clearly one of the most unique ideas mentioned so far.

I was thinking before about stamina that you could use implements from RPGs like a Limit Break, where at your peak in stamina, you would get a free chance to deliver your best possible attack guaranteed (100% sucess rate.) You could only ever get this once per fight, and most likely when your stamina or whatever it be called was at full.

Kind of critical hits, think it should be based on some different factors, probably luck being one of them... - PumaN

I also envisioned when this topic first came out that, say a stormlord was using a lot of different and powerfull commands: lshield, flash, lightning in preperation and deliverance of attacks on their foe, that they would drain their stamina before they ran out of actual gp. But then this evolved into something that seemed like it was going to do away with GP as it is now and devide it into different categories under stamina based on the person's guild.

The new break downs of different types of stamina Mental/Physical should be what we think about now. And i suggest we use a tree graph in showing how the commands coincide with one another in there individual categories based on guild and those other kinds of commands that deal with the use of the GP command (which i don't know if it would even be called that any more now.) i don't think this board will let you make a tree graph unless HTML is enabled or something laf. We need some kind of flow chart to map this thing through so everyone can see and come to terms with how this could be a really cool idea. I know i can think better when i have a clear representation of what to expect. bleh heh


MikeBedlam
quote:


ties in to how much physical damage you can take, it would give a reason behind magicians not being able to take as much hits as a warrior...(by Puma)

Okay with that being said i can form an image in my head now.

Adventurers start out with 50gp now. Divide this into 25mana 25stamina. They can raise their mana by learning magic. And they can raise their stamina by training ot.st and combat. This is how it should work for everyone, where mana is replaced by their guild's primary skill.

Stormlords get to use 25% of their gp towards stamina and 75% towards their magical commands mana. This said, they cannot move as fast as the other guilds.

Okay so mana=gcommands for storms and druids and stamina=gcommands for thieves and druids Its split with druids because some of their commands are almost magical. Summon beast for example.

Druids get 50% mana 50% stamina.

Thieves get 75% to stamina and 25% to mana. Thieves are then the fastest once more.

Stamina, as said before is the combination of SPEED+ENDURANCE not health.

HP is not affected by any of these ideas.

Stamina however is required to maintain continuous use of commands. Replenishing stamina points should only be from resting. Drinks and food should only heal mana and HP.

Not eating/drinking/resting should make your health/stamina stop replenishing or only be able to replenish to a percentage of maximum in case of rest perhaps... - PumaN


ElffyB Let's try to stay in scope and keep this conversation to implement stamina as a means to eliminate repetitive task.

What I really mean though is to keep combat out of the conversation. While combat will undoubtedly be affected by stamina, it probably should go on a different thread.

Fantom has some cool ideas on combat btw.


PyrO

I like the idea of stamina tieing into speed. When low on stamina, your combat slows down, it may take 2 rounds to do an attack, instead of one. This also can go back to the repetitive task idea, when you keep doing something over and over again, eg speed walking, it eventually slows down, to a crawl, as a person would get tired after a long run.

[snip] If a player does not have enough stamina [snip] the spells effectiveness goes down a lot.[snip]

-- PyrO - 30 Jan 2003 Snipping of previously covered parts by PumaN

I agree with Pyros comments farther up on how to use stamina. I don't think ot.st should affect stamina so much as some other skill. Ot.st already effect hp...and everyone has that as high as possible, and it assumes that the dwarves have an easier time of casting an extremly difficult spell (lightning). I think stamina should be guild determined.

-- DonaldKincannon - 02 Feb 2003


The combat discussion CombatFromOtherMud has a some worthy reading with respect to the use of stamina in a fight.

-- FantoM - 11 Feb 2003


I don't think you should not be able to perform an action if you don't have enough stamina. Would probably be best if it could go down to a negative value (doesn't matter how much) that affects your skills rather than stop them from being used. say you use your last stamina to perform an icestorm (you've been fighting for long). you stamina drops below zero and your chance of summoning the cloud drops drasticly. If you succeed the damage is drained since it is less powerful. if you keep ignoring your stamina one it is below zero(at a random value or based on skill)you might even faint. fainting/severe damage from combat is discussed at CombatDesignPonders.

About Limit breaks I think they will accur when a player have taken alot of damage and will actually boost your stamina a bit (limit breaks happens when a player is full of rage no?). A separate thread for this? could be discussed at CombatDesignPonders as well?

-- FreD - 21 Nov 2003 17:54


I think we need physical and mental stamina. Define physical stamina with (Sp) Stamina points and metal stamina wth Mp: Mana points

Movement, physical attacks would drain Sp: (duh) and only magical based and perhaps educational(scholarly) commands would drain Mp: (double duh?)

I think anytime you use Sp: or Mp: you should have a chance of aa'ing it, because through use you grow stronger.

Also, Sp: and Mp: should both be able to drop into the negatives....the lower the number the greater chance of failing. This would mean that a person could technically be fatigued over great period of time if they go with food or rest. If you drop too far in the negatives for Sp: a player should become exhausted and fall over unconcious until they heal a determined percentage of their Sp:. This could result in death if a big enough aggro mob or a pk finds the unconcious player.

We may need to add skills like other.stamina.physical and ot.stamina.mental. And decide how to determine hp....maybe with other.stamina.health?

-- DonaldKincannon - 25 Nov 2003

I would argue that gp is mental stamina - just poorly named (as it's not really guild points, it's points used to perform commands).

Presuming this is true then commands could be defined as consuming some of each time of stamina.

I wouldn't want to introduce too many variants tho - hp/gp/sp/mp - and all of the last three being used just to perform a command seems a little over the top. Even splitting sp/mp or mp/gp is confusing.

-- FantoM - 25 Nov 2003

I was suggesting the removal of Gp: all together...we could have health/stamina(for physical)/mana(or whatever, for magical/mental) depending one which one you need you could train your stamina as thief/warrior gcoms would drain more stamina, whereas druid/mage commands would drain mana or whatever. Preparation for a spell would use regular stamina, where as the actual casting would consume mana. A "stab" is simply a physical command and would only drain stamina. Moving from a or other physical activity would use stamina soley.

-- DonaldKincannon - 25 Nov 2003

While I agree I can hear the thieves whinging already - "Druids get to use mana to cast spells, we use up all our stamina just moving round!"

-- FantoM - 25 Nov 2003

Thieves would be at an advantage because they wouldn't need to train both Stamina and Mana. Plus, because they'll solely be using Stamina (until they learn some spells at least) they'll auto-advance it more often due to the sheer amount of times they'll be using it.

Thieves will/could have spells if they find a means of learning one, but that means they need to train their mana either through use of the spell or the spending of exp.

I think if we get this stat thing out of the way, we could better move onto Stamina changes....In other words, when people have set stats they choose, plus any bonus from guild, race, or gender, we could set up stamina it so that the stats that serve Warrior's and Thieves (Dex, Str, Con) would affect how much physical stamina a character would get, and the stats that serve Cleric's and Mages (Wis, Int) would have a greater affect on that characters mana total. This would mean that a person wanting to be a talent thief would have higher Dex, this would result in a higher bonus to his physical stamina skill. Less skill levels for a higher total of physical stamina. Does that make sense?

-- DonaldKincannon - 26 Nov 2003

I like all these arguments. Question tho - what "stat thing" ? You mean when people set their stats and don't get to advance them until everyone is identical?

-- FantoM - 26 Nov 2003

I really hope that this will be test ran on a fake mud, and somewhat up to players to adopt this new system, as it will change the entire flow of the game. If not, like spam said, massive amount of player loss. If this were put into play, without adequate testing, input from players, etc. And as for making movements part of stamina and draining combat and spells - that is too much realism. I dont want to fall over dead from running to my stash thats a million rooms from login and back. I think the main discussion of this topic was too slow down a druid from channeling constant healing through there body, or a storm channeling constant magical power, without ever stopping. And thieves, from, uhh, being sneaky.... for too long... I guess.. bastards -TuKaN

Part of the intention was to stop you being able to dash a million rooms and back in heartbeat.

I'm in favour of stamina effecting combat - so being able to wear your opponent out would be possible.

I'd be in favour of a max stamina, which you reach if you sit still for a little while, and a "max stamina after walking" which you never drop below as a result of walking. Thus you will never be stopped from traversing the mud but you'd be better off resting up before a fight... introduces the PK option of wearing out an opponent.

I'm in favour of a maximum number of commands a heartbeat, with varying times per command, with additional commands being queued for execution in the next heartbeat.

-- FantoM - 13 Nov 2004

I think this should be brought up here too.. I'm introducing "fatigue" as a combat stat. Its not the same as stamina (but could be based on it). I have been using it to limit the amount of actions you can do in combat. Much like number of "swings" you can do per round. It has no limit (actually it goes upwards from fully rested at zero) and heals pretty quicky (can be restored in only a few rounds). There's a limit based on skills, stats and stamina how far it can go until you are concidered to be "fatigued" and can't do more commands. Normally you will be able to attack once and defend one or two attacks before you are "fatigued". -- FreD - 13 Nov 2004


Recently posted by me was something objectifying the idea of walking around being a part of stamina. As an effort to try to not deteriorate this idea, Ill just say this: Before anything of this nature gets put into play, I hope an ideas forum will be made for players to post there thoughts on the change. This was probably already going to be executed in this fashion (or so I would hope), so now instead of making it seem like a "No stamina or bust" protest, I just ask that some kind of middle ground is found for this idea, between players and wizards.

-Tucan/Jinx

Anyone and everyone has been invited to the twiki. If they can't get that involved then they are not interested enough. Feel free to raise the issue on the in-game boards if you want but anyone who doesn't get organised enough to post a coherent discussion here, will be ignored.

-- FantoM - 21 Nov 2004

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